Contact your local Michigan House Representative.

Convince them to vote FOR House Bill 4348. This bill needs more support.

House Bill 4348 would eliminate Pistol-Free Zones for CPL holders. Meaning, you would be able to concealed carry on campus, in the dorms, in K-12 schools, in a sports arena, in a bar (you still can't drink and carry), or in a theater. Federal / Reservation laws are still in effect, meaning Post Offices, Banks, Courts, and Casinos are still a no-no.

Bottom line, is that PFZs DISARM THE LAW ABIDING POPULATION. Criminals break the law. Why are they going to obey a sign or law that says "No Guns?"

Virginia Tech.
Columbine.
Munich Massacre.

What do these all have in common?

Lawful citizens were disarmed. Criminals had the guns. They had no ability to defend themselves. Not even staff & faculty are allowed carry a firearm currently.


This basically sums it up for me, my personal email to Tonya Schuitmaker:

Do you think the Virginia Tech Massacre might have ended differently, had only one student been armed? Do you think if 19-year old Emily Hilscher, his first victim, had been armed, would she have lived? Would the whole massacre been adverted, all thanks to one young girl that took action?

Representatives for Kalamazoo County:
robertjones@house.mi.gov
LarryDeShazor@house.mi.gov
JamesBolger@house.mi.gov

Write them a brief email. It's IMPORTANT that you do. It could change your life, or the lives of others.

There's many CPL holders on the site, and I think all of them would agree, that WMU / KVCC / others would be MUCH safer if this bill were to pass.

Police response time was 5 minutes at Virginia Tech. That's all it took him to kill 32 people. The second the police showed up, he offed himself. It takes me under 3 seconds to unholster my sidearm, or under probably 10 seconds to dig it out of a backpack / messenger bag. Which do you think those 32 dead kids would have preferred that day?

-Richard-

emails sent.

How often do individuals need to renew their CPL?

I think it needs to be revised. Guns don't belong in elementary schools or middle school/high school sporting events.

Agreed.

dorms?? how many 21 years olds live in the dorms? guns don't belong near schools or bars

Yeah, no guns in bars. Who the hell would allow that? The law may state that someone carrying a gun can't drink in the bar, but how could a server know if their customer has one?

People who carry guns (legally) are already somewhat paranoid by nature, and if that individual is in the wrong state of mind and gets drunk, they're suddenly a walking trigger. And it's fair to argue that legal gun carriers are literally afraid of the concept of loss in terms of their property or life and the lives of the people they love. And in the words of Yoda:

"Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering."

well i dont care what anybody says, you cant argue with yoda.

Impossible.

Matt you do know that you can open carry with a CPL license in a bar.

Office the banks part in your original thread needs to include Federal Banks. Regular 5/3, keystone banks are not under that law. Theater's are a gray area as no one has defined if 2500+ people has to be in one seating area, or the entire building.

You guys are right, if we allowed guns at schools, somebody would go on a shooting spree or something, and that would be horrible... Oh, wait...

These firearm free zones are exactly where people go for this stupid shit, because they can be guaranteed that their victims will be unable to fight back.

Because elementary school shooting, and middle school/highschool shooting don't happen eh?

What would have happened if one teacher at Columbine was armed?
Have you heard of Patrick Purdy? In 1989, he opened fire on an elementary schoolyard. 6 dead, 30 wounded. Teacher's couldn't do a thing except hide.

On average, this is 1 school shooting every two years since 1966 that leaves one or more dead. Once you get upto the 1980s, you see an upward trend. 3 shootings per year, MULTIPLES dead.

Let's go to another part of the world. Israel. Mercaz HeRav Massacre. The 26-year old shooter carried in a box, an AK47 type weapon and several magazines. The firefight lasted 30 minutes, leaving 8 students dead (average age, about 16), and 11 injured. Upwards of 500+ rounds were fired. But do you know how the firefight ende?

Basically, a student that was in THEIR version of ROTC for the Israel Defense Force was carrying that day. He fired, and killed the attacker.

An armed student. Killed the attacker.



Let me run the bar scenario for you:

Your friend calls you. He's drunk. He tells you what bar he's at. It's the shitty area of town. Huge crime problem.

Currently :
Well shit, you can't concealed carry into the bar to pick your friend up, and you didn't bring a holster to open-carry with. Your only choice is to leave the gun in the car. You walk inside to pick your friend up. Suddenly, this happens.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZz6kOJcn7c
You're now caught in a firefight, without a gun. Armed criminals, and you're defenseless. There's nothing you can do, but run and possibly turn yourself into a soft backstop for bullets that weren't even intended for you. Or you can wait and hide, and possibly the same thing might happen.



Yeah, I really didn't feel like getting into specifics with seating capacity and such. Credit Unions are exempt. Also, you can open-carry with a CPL into a K-12 school, Bar, or Theater currently.

------
My bottom line : Nothing good comes from disarmament. The first thing that happened in the 1930s, is all Jews that were "deemed a threat to the Germany Socialist Movement", were to be disarmed. Then, all of the hunters. Then everybody was disarmed.

There's 215,000 CPL holders in Michigan. In the past few years, under 20 have been revoked, and only one due to commission of a Felony.

CPL holders are the good guys. We've gone through the FBI background check. We've taken a course. We read the laws. We practice, to be ready. We're NOT paranoid. We DO NOT live in fear.

-Richard-

Ok so you let a teacher or two carry on grounds. There is no reason to let anyone with a clean record bring a gun on to school ground.

Office, you got your research in. Props.


I'm just not that worried. Yeah, that shit could happen to me. A lot of shit could happen to me. The way I see it, there's an equal chance of the Earth being struck by a life-ending asteroid as there is me getting popped in the head while I'm shopping for a new pair of flip-flops at the mall.


Death is not something you or I can avoid. Owning a gun will only prolong long your life and shorten someone else's...and can you really say that your reasoning is that much better than the "psychopathic lunatic?" Reality is just as subjective as opinion.


Then there's the paradox of using a gun to protect oneself from another gun. If there wasn't a gun in the first place, there would be no problem. It's like a glass of water trying to drink itself. The issue won't ever be resolved.



But I guess I would have to digress... When it comes down to it, the nature of a human life is like that of a gun...instinctual, epistemologically complicated, and only dangerous when controlled.

Sooo you can concealed carry in a restaurant (that sells alcohol), but not a bar? Both have alcohol. you could be drunk at either. I think if you can carry in a restaurant, you should be able to carry in a bar (as Office explained). You can't carry and drink; i would just have to give the benefit of the doubt to those with CPLs that they won't drink ANYWHERE and carry...

As for k-12 school; answer = cops. teachers are in the classrooms, not in the halls and the other places where there are large groups of students. in this day and age; we need cops in schools to maintain order. i have personally seen how big of and effect just having a few 'well placed' cops can keep kids MORE in line...

I agree with matt- While your arguments make logical sense, I'm just not that paranoid. Hell, I don't lock the car. If they really want something inside, go for it.

This isnt even worth arguing about. The only thing I will say is that every scenario is different and laws shouldnt be changed or put in place because of something that happens at such a low frequency you have a better chance at getting struck by lightning. Cept for Detoilet, everyone should carry no matter what in that town. lol

So, Detroit is OK to carry everywhere, but are you implying that other places, Columbine .... VT... Airplanes... don't make sense because violence doesn't happen there? I carry a lot and pistol free zones piss me off. I'm law abiding and I have to disarm myself when in places I go to regularly, but they are just like carry zones. Why are these places different? You trust my judgment at a highly populated Wal-Mart with kids but not a school?


I never drink while carrying. However, I usually drink at home where a gun is never more than 12 inches away. Never had a negligent discharge. My wife has never had a ND.





GUN FREE ZONES ARE VICTIM ZONES. Why do shooters choose schools or other gun free zones? Simply because the resistance at a school or otherwise will be much lower than a regular carry zone.

I highly doubt the gunner who simply wants to kill ever checked to make sure nobody is going to shoot back. They end up committing suicide anyway. They also choose the place they feel "wronged" them...not simply a place that is unarmed.

The guy who shot up that gym in Pennsylvania chose that place because he wanted to harm many women at one time. He did it in a fashion that would have prevented any armed person from fighting back anyway...pitch black room.

Finally, yes. If a dude walked into crossroads mall with a gun and suddenly started to open fire and LUCKILY there was someone there to put a legitimate stop to it quickly, lives would be saved. But the incident would happened because he wanted to kill and then die. Not because he thought he could get away with it. People may not have died physically because you were a hero with your gun, but children still witnessed the slaughter of at least one person. And their life will be affected drastically from that moment on anyway.

So what I'm saying is, you can't control people who own guns with fear. A maniac who wants to kill WILL kill and there is nothing your gun can do about it unless you read his mind. If you want to prevent violence, remove it from the option. And I'm not saying guns are the problem, they're simply the easiest and fastest way to accomplish said option. Don't fiddle with the branches of evil, hack at the roots.

I will agree with you on the maniac part. However, at least if I'm armed, I'll have a fighting chance, and I may save others in the process.

If some mentally disturbed kid, decided to move room-to-room at KVCC or WMU, with no thought of mercy...wouldn't you want a method to defend yourself? I know I would. If this bill passes, I've got my eyes on building an AR15 pistol specifically for messenger bag / backpack carry. No one would ever know about it.

Most gun deaths that the Brady campaign likes to flaunt, are suicides.

UK has banned handguns. It's almost impossible to own a rifle or shotgun. So now that the good people are disarmed, only the criminals have the guns.

Even if you ARE a citizen that owns a legally owned shotgun, you should NEVER consider defending yourself with it. A man had his home broken into. He had two young children. The two thieves threatened him at knifepoint to kill his family. He shot both of the thieves with his double-barreled shotgun, that was registered for "Clays and Duck - sporting purpose". The first thief died, the second got away.

He's now serving life in prison for defending his wife and children. Both thieves had someodd 35+ priors for robbery, and assault with a knife.

Guns are the only material protected right by the constitution. They are the ONLY thing that keeps other countries from even considering an invasion.

Quote, General Yamamoto during the Pearl Harbor planning : "You cannot invade the mainland United States; there would be a rifle behind each blade of grass."

Added to that, if you ban guns, who's in control now? The government now has infinite power, with no threat of overthrow.

Gun laws are NOT thought out. It's like the law against suicide. It's only illegal if you succeed...but if you succeed, how are they going to enforce it? They're a waste of taxpayers money and time.

My personal wants for Michigan:
Legalize Campus-Carry
Get rid of Handgun Registration (It's racist. I'll explain if you ask.)
Overturn the Michigan Short Barrel Rifle ban
Overturn the Michigan Suppressor ban

-Richard-

1. No one is talking about banning guns, just not allowing them in certain places.

2. You can own a suppressor in Michigan with proper licensing. I agree that it is a ridiculous process to get one, but you can get it.

3. Why do you even need a suppressor? Law abiding citizens that own guns do so to hunt and or to protect them selves. If you are just protecting your self, why do you need to be quite about it?

To me it's the fact that laws like this are not thought out. Like I mentioned matt, you can openly carry a firearm in many more places than you can conceal. From a safety perspective of individuals involved, it could be argued that it would be safer if that weapon was concealed given the situation. Same for short barrel rifle and suppressor ban. We can legally own a Fully Automatic weapon in the state of mi with the proper NFA Tax Stamp, yet we can't own a short barrel rifle or suppressor which is legal on the federal level same as that Full Auto..

1. See above. It's hinted, but he agrees it would not be effective.

2. Nope, banned in Michigan, even with proper BATF paperwork. Michigan is Relic Short-Barrel Shotguns and Full-Auto only.

3. I can give you multiple reasons.

So I don't go deaf at the range.
So I can drop a .22LR conversion in my AR and hunt small game without disturbing the whole township.
Resale value (Used suppressors cost almost as much as new ones)

and most importantly:

Because a 12.5" SBR AR15 + An AAC Can is the sweetest damn thing on the planet.

-Richard-

Way to glaze over in your righteous battle. It was just a joke about Detroit numb nuts. EDIT: Perhaps I was a lil over the top

What I think is sad is the fact that people think they need to carry everywhere you go. To me that just wreaks of them wanting to use it. This is coming from a gun bunny, I spent my years in the Marine Corps as an armorer, I never felt the need to carry as I think it provokes more trouble than its worth. Yes, it would be nice to have in the event someone goes ape shit, but again, I bet I have less chance of that happening to me than getting struck by lightning. What are you guys preparing yourselves for? LOL The best way to stay out of trouble is to avoid it.



(waiting for the reply from someone that says you cant avoid all trouble, well, I guess you just got struck by lightning, congrats you are a statistic)

^lol^





Going deaf at the range? Really? It's called ear protection. If you are really worried about use a pair of in ear plugs as well as over the ear.

I get suppressor are "cool", but is it really worth you having something "cool"? Think about it, if they become legal, they will be much more accessible to the non law abiding citizens. Think of how many murderers are caught fast because the neighbors head gun shots and called the cops. I just don't think the pros outweigh the cons on this one. I know, "if the bad guy want something, their going to get it". But making them legal makes it that much more easy for them.

So, rather than little johnny survive with a somewhat troubling memory, it's best if he and 30 of his friends and family get mowed down? I fail to see that as an acceptable outcome. Then again, crossroads tries to be a pistol free zone, so it looks like little johnny and his family are screwed after all.

Yes, these people do intentionally go to areas where their victims are unarmed, not because they plan on surviving, but because they know they'll get more media coverage if they kill 50 people than they will if they only kill one or two before they're stopped.

They aren't just trying to get vengeance for their being wronged, they're trying to go out in a blaze of glory, with a message to the world that "this is what you people get for not bowing down to worship me."





Yes, I suppose I should wear ear plugs and muffs when I'm out stalking through the woods hunting deer. I mean, being able to hear what's going on around me isn't important in that situation either.

Do you really think these stupid cracked out fucking thugs are going to screw a 10" can onto their glock 9mm and then shove them down their pants? It isn't practical for them as it isn't concealable. Even if they wanted to, they can already easily buy an illegal, home made can, for a couple hundred tops.

Your knowledge of a suppressor must from from the movies, where it makes a gun totally inaudible and super sneaky. You are also wrong. It significantly reduces the volume of the combustion taking place in the chamber and barrel. The loud "OMG SOMEBODY'S SHOOTING!!!" sound coming from the projectile breaking the sound barrier, is unaffected.

If I didn't go deaf from 155mm Howitzer, Super Charge 8 Wrap Rounds going off next to me, I doubt you are going to go deaf from your lil AR & ear plugs. LMFAO That was the lamest list of reasons. The only reason I think would be justified is that they ARE legal on a federal level but not in the state. My question is, what provoked the law to be put in place? Something had to provoke it. And please, skip the stories you have heard and whatever else, link to a case file or something.

In my absolute personal opinion, yes, I would rather see little johnny get mowed down than live the rest of his life in fear. I don't consider the life we live valuable enough to fight that much for. If I were in a situation where there is a terrorist attack on a building I was in, I would run, perhaps fight back if I had a gun, but I know and understand that I would not be contributing to a solution.


This topic is about finding a solution to the problem of criminals, is it not? That's what you all want guns for, right? This topic is about promoting a way of self protection and empowerment, right? Well, where do those bad people come from? Doesn't that matter? Or are we just supposed to accept the fact that the human species is doomed to be fighting within itself forever... or at least until the frail structure of reason finally erodes and someone pushes the wrong button and the planet is wiped clean of the viral infection that we call civilization?

Supersick, on the federal level where suppressors and SBR/SBS are legal (and in many states also), they are heavily regulated. You have to properly fill out a form, get this and that signed, pay $200, etc. You can't cross state lines with it, without notifying the ATF. I see no more ease of access of NFA weapons to criminals by allowing it on a state level. I see no reason why someone who's law abiding can't own one, especially since in the state of MI, Full Autos can be legally owned. It's kind of like owning a 600+hp car. Sure it gets from A to B, but it sure is a hell of a lot cooler than a Prius

Travis, I will see how the ban on SBRs/SBSs and Suppressors came about in MI.

http://www.legislature.mi.gov/%28S%28sjy2m...ame=mcl-750-224

I've been looking for a while to find any sort of case history that led up to this, but no dice. Maybe because it was thrown in as a small part of a massive restructuring of laws in 1931.

SBR&SBS outlawed at the same time, with an ammendment in the 70's to allow curio.
http://www.legislature.mi.gov/%28S%28sjy2m...me=mcl-750-224b

GJ Loki, now we can send an email with these links as bullet points request in a tactful manor information regarding how these laws came about. When you (no referring to you Loki) just shoot an email to someone that says, NO TO THIS, WHAT IF THIS, WHAT IF THAT, I promise you that shit will go straight to the spam folder if I were in office. Come to them with a tactful email and something that is worth their time and they will make time.

Don't be an ass. I, for one, have actually shot a sig sauer 9mm with a suppressor on it in Wyoming about a year ago. Do you know what it really sounds like? Because I do.

i totally agree with the hippy shit mattmacc is spouting.

threads like this (and there have been many on here over the years) just read like people are itching to find a troublemaker and mow them down. like they hope it happens so they can be a hero.

now i know nobody would be an ass and say they hope some crazy shooter goes off in their presence killing people on a shooting spree, but i wonder if there isn't a little bit of truth to that.

whatever, i just think the answer doesn't involve more people having more guns that kick more ass. i don't know what the answer is either.

Well, considering it's a felony to posses a suppressor in michigan, I would have to say for the record that no, I have never seen, held, heard, or owned a suppressor. I will say that I once saw a movie where a guy had a 7" gemtech on a 92fs shooting subsonic ammo. That was quiet.

No.

Suppressor requirements:
BATF Form 2, must be filled out, doublesided, signed by Chief of State Police
6 month wait, intense FBI background check
$200 tax

Supressors, SBR/SBS, FA have been banned since the late 1920s. You know how often they've been used in crimes since then?

I can only think of ONE instance:
1997 North Hollywood Shootout. And they were illegally modified Civilian rifles with FA fire-control groups. Not stolen, or legally purchased.

Suppressors are heavily used in training instances. Why? Because you don't have to wear ear protection, and you can clearly hear range commands / instructions. I'll be taking MDFI's Carbine I & II course in the summer.




You should think about the bolded statement a little more.

Criminals will ALWAYS exist, it's human nature. I don't live in fear at all. Actually, I rest peacefully knowing that I can legally defend myself, and that I'm protected by the Castle Doctrine. I rest peacefully knowing that Michigan has a "STAND YOUR GROUND" clause, saying I do not have to attempt to retreat when there's a threat.

The human race is weak as a whole. But I'm not here to discuss philosophy.



I would love to write some long-winded reply. But this unknown writer said it best:

I don't carry a gun to kill people.
I carry a gun to keep from being killed.

I don't carry a gun to scare people.
I carry a gun because sometimes this world can be a scary place.

I don't carry a gun because I'm paranoid.
I carry a gun because there are real threats in the world.

I don't carry a gun because I'm evil.
I carry a gun because I have lived long enough to see the evil in the world.

I don't carry a gun because I hate the government.
I carry a gun because I understand the limitations of government.

I don't carry a gun because I'm angry.
I carry a gun so that I don't have to spend the rest of my life hating myself for failing to be prepared.

I don't carry a gun because I want to shoot someone.
I carry a gun because I want to die at a ripe old age in my bed, and not on a sidewalk somewhere tomorrow afternoon.

I don't carry a gun to make me feel like a man.
I carry a gun because men know how to take care of themselves and the ones they love.

I don't carry a gun because I feel inadequate.
I carry a gun because unarmed and facing three armed thugs, I am inadequate.

I don't carry a gun because I love it.
I carry a gun because I love life and the people who make it meaningful to me.

Police Protection is an oxymoron. Free citizens must protect themselves.
Police do not protect you from crime, they usually just investigate the crime after it happens and then call someone in to clean up the mess.

-Richard-

you know nothing more about human nature than I or anyone else does on this planet does. What you know is a rich history of warfare.

But that doesn't make it human nature.


I believe in the concept of infinity; the innate notion that everything exists indefinitely. When you really surround yourself with the truth that things don't just "pop" into existence, you will see no beginning and no end to time. All the scriptures of history and epic stories of gods and goddesses will seem like particles of dust with that revelation and the world as you know it will become endlessly smaller.

I have no privileged place here, nor do you. I am not one to judge, nor are you. Life will continue here without me, and I will continue without it. You can't arm yourself out of the pain of human existence. The most fortified civilizations of history eventually parished; be it by the hand of man or nature. There are things you simply cannot escape. I welcome death when it's time.

If that's too extreme, I can understand. But try this one on: look down upon the Earth from the perspective of the universe. From that point of view, we're one entity. This entire fucking planet and everything that dwells upon it is one living thing from the viewpoint of the universe. So that makes me wonder why we're fighting each other. What is the point in any kind of dominance on anything of this minute scale? It seems like such a waste of something with as much potential as we have...and the bad seeds that you want to protect yourself from are as much a part of this little dot as you are. My argument would be to learn from their mistake, don't just write it off as some fucked up excuse for a life.

I carry because i feel comfortable with a gun on me at all times. Ive had one with me for the last 4 years. And this spring when i get out of the millitary, i will continue to carry. Not because it makes me feel like a badass, or because i want to continue killing. I dont. But if im put in a situation where i need to defend myself or other unarmed civilians i can, and know ill be able to. Id rather have it and never need it, Then to need it and not have it.

And as far as silencers, If you can own one legally, Why not? Ive personally fired 100's of rounds through my old MK11 (.308) And MK12 (5.56/.223) with cans on them. I love it, I can shoot all day without hearing protection in. And yes, I am very familiar with wearing it all day, everyday at ranges. But would i rather loose it and use a silencer, Of course i would. Not if, but when (Insert communist country here) invades, i bet you all will wish you had silencers for your assault rifles and sniper rifles Modern Warfare 2 style.

I would think your experience would have taught you a bit more about preparedness and the 'it's better to have and not need than to need and not have' mentality. However, the quote of the Marine below illustrates my point better than than I could. The internet doesn't convey intentions in text as well as actual conversational tones, thus the reason for my missing your 'joke' in a serious topic. To address your points, when I took my CPL class, we were heavily instructed on avoidance and evasion techniques because of the potential legal issues surrounding employing a firearm in self defense. Carrying one does not mean employing one is a matter that can be taken lightly. If someone makes the wrong decision, it could mess up their entire life. People who carry legally do so with a great burden on their shoulders. It could, potentially fuck up their entire life and their family's life if they make the wrong decision. Do I still carry knowing this? You bet. It's my right and I'll exercise it. I serve my country, I will do my best to avoid situations that call on me to use a firearm, but I will always be prepared to defend and protect myself and others with the best means available.


Yeah, I do believe I need to carry everywhere I go. Why? Who else would I trust more with my safety than myself? The only people I truly trust are my battles b/c they will be there for me, but they aren't always there. Thus, I have to prepare. Do you have a natural disaster kit prepared? If not, you're not prepared for something that may, potentially disrupt your entire life. If you do have one, you're paranoid. See where I'm going with this? I'd rather be that guy who prepared and helps his neighbors when they need it than be that feeble person relying on others. It is individual responsibility and I'll take it any day of the week over the 'call the nanny state to come protect me' BS that is spewed by so many people unwilling to take control and responsibility for what happens.






Great reply. The 'comfortable' comment speaks to me. I just never have an issue with being around guns. My body automatically knows the safety procedures without even having to think about them. Most times, I just clear my guns 6-10 times after I've quadruple checked them to be clear... just to be sure. It's just second nature to handle them a certain way.



Suppressors and silencers are for two specific, law abiding reasons:
1.) Doesn't disturb the community when you fire one (gun ranges have been shut down/limited b/c of this)
2.) Doesn't destroy your hearing

They're also not helpful in crimes because they easily add 6-12 inches to the barrel of a firearm, which in just about every instance, a criminal is trying to conceal so they don't attract attention before they want it. The most common firearms in crimes are small sized, small capacity, small caliber pistols that easily go into pockets.

Well, in all fairness, you are in your right to not contribute to a solution. I, however, choose to be part of that solution, whether it be lethal or non-lethal intervention. It is also my right to choose that route and that route is one of the founding principles of this nation. We are independent thinkers and doers, bound to a philosophy of individuality. I don't agree with you, but I respect your opinion none the less.


The problem of criminals will always exist. As long as there are people who walk around looking at the ground, who have zero situational awareness, and who do not prepare, there will be someone there to take advantage of them, whether violently or non-violently. The strong prey on the weak in all forms of species on this earth. It's nature and natural selection that they will be made to pay for their weakness. However, humans possess a great deal of compassion for the weak and many of the strong are willing to stand up for and defend the weak.

"Those who abjure violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf." George Orwell

"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."


"We sleep soundly in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm." - Winston Churchill

Like they say, There are three types of people in this life: #1. Sheep #2. Wolves #3. Sheep dogs. Which do you want to be? I choose to be the sheep dog. And that is my personal choise. I could care less what anyone elses chooses. Either your going to be proactive or reactive. And ill do my best to be proactive, although it doesnt always work out the way you would like it to.

you gun guys are talking high and mighty about being protectors, strong, etc. and implying that anti-gun people are pussies/ below you. it's that attitude i hate as much as the guns themselves.

by not walking around with a gun, i'm not asking any of you to protect me. maybe my view on life is that when it's your time, it's your time. nothing you can do about it.

If the government has guns, so should we. In fact, we should have bigger guns. So, yes, I would agree with the original topic of this thread.

But that's not the point.

The founding fathers of this country got it right. They created an organized body of government that could evolve with time. And it has, and it's been good.

HOWever...
Unless we can work together, America will die. And since America embodies the most natural government ever known to mankind, if it dies, so does the world...and people can't work together if they're frightened of invasion, especially by their own people. Removing the violence from government will remove the violence from the human heart. That's the final evolutionary step.

Or total destruction. Whichever. When speaking in terms of nature, this planet will be here until the sun explodes...whether humans will be or not is irrelevant.

I dont think your a pussy because you dont carry a gun, In fact, I dont care whatsoever that you dont carry a gun. Nor do you want to. Doesnt effect me at all in day to day life. And when i say protect unarmed civilians, I dont mean as a vigilante or anything crazy. I have nothing to prove to anyone or any desire to be a hero. But if im in the right spot, at the right time i potentially could do the right thing and de-escalate a situation in its early stages instead of reacting to it afterwards. And yes, i understand when its your time, its your time. Believe me,But there is still a lot of shit i want to do in this life, and im going to do my best to see that it happens. But if someone were to stop your early demise you wouldn't be appreciative? And its not like im going to be a pistol packing redneck running around meijers at 3am. As soon as i get out, ill be returning to school (Hopeflly texas state if i get accepted) And finish my degree in criminal justice, and become a police officer.

Exactly, why go through life worried about other people's actions. If the shit goes down, seek cover and hope for the best. I think what should happen in the cases of the college shooting and school shoots is that the responsibility should be pinned to their risk management team and security team. They are quick to point the finger to something other than the organization it took place on. When things like that happen in a organization, it should be obvious that perhaps they need to arm their security, maybe add some additional precautions. The mall scenario that was brought up, perhaps security companies need to be armed in places like that. Most of the time its the mall that does not want armed security, maybe pepper spray or a tazer. Shit, give them nonlethal rounds, that shit will still take you down. I guess my main point goes back to dick and jane, I would not feel safe with every dick and jane running around with guns on their hip or concealed. Especially when Office sounds like he is itching to be a hero or maybe some braggin' rights.

+1. I have no qualms with non-gun owners or anti-gun people. Different Strokes for different folks.

Whiteego in general why do you not like guns?

why should i list reasons why i dont like them? so that someone can do some internet google research to try to win an internet argument against me?

like travis said, i dont feel any safer that john q. public is walking around with a gun. if it was up to me, i dont want any of you guys walking around with a gun on you. now i like a lot of you guys posting up about your guns. great guys. but it's like you think your dick is bigger with a pistol on your person. i dont want a gun in a 4th grade school because there is a cunt hairs thin chance somebody will open fire.

everyone has their own opinion, that's mine. i'm entitled to mine just as you're entitled to walk around with a gun. you think my opinion is stupid, i think you walking around with a gun is stupid. hate me if you want, i'll go on hoping i dont get shot.

I dont think its a matter of liking guns or not. I am a gun bunny, love guns. Spent four years of my life locked in a cage with hundreds of guns. lol But I dont want Mr. BillyBadAssWannabe patroling my neighborhood with his 6 shooter. lol

Example:


I know its a range day photo, and I am sure you guys exercise good range safety and all, but id like to use it as an example of maybe what you WOULDNT do, but you KNOW someone on the extreme end of the spectrum may. Someone decides they want to walk up and down your block that you dont know fully decked out in tactical gear, a side arm, AR strapped to their back. . etc. Imma fuckin call the cops and tell them there is a freak roaming my street ready for World War III.

I think the point is, you SHOULDNT have to walk the streets of the USA carrying a gun. I am all for gun owning, modifying (guilty, but legal), but Id rather the normal joe leave them at home unless they are employed to provide security or of course hunting.

To me this is how I would approach it, I dont care if you feel the need to carry. I would just remove myself from that situation. Or if you were my personal friend, I would ask that you not carry everywhere we go. If you refuse, well, I guess I wont hang out with ya that much.

If you don't want to carry or own a gun, that's fine. Not all people can handle the responsibility, or even want to handle the responsibility. Some of us prefer not to say "Would you prefer to shoot me in the left or right side of my face so my family can't identify me? Because hey! It's my time.".



" If the shit goes down, seek cover and hope for the best." = If that attitude worked, they would have sent you into Iraq/Afghanistan unarmed.

I don't know about you guys, but I rather like living. And I'd prefer to keep it that way, by having the ability and the right to defend myself. But you guys would probably prefer it this way, eh?

Click to view attachment

"I think what should happen in the cases of the college shooting and school shoots is that the responsibility should be pinned to their risk management team and security team." = Nice. Not only would the cost be out the roof, but the colleges and schools also don't want the liability. Okay, let's say it does happen. Bam, Colleges now have their own HRT. What's their response time? WMU Police Station to Campus? 3 minutes? Well hmmm, Cho killed 32 in 5 minutes. It takes me ~2 seconds to draw my 1911 from my SERPA holster and pop the safety off...Oh which would I prefer? Still my 1911A1. Because you know what? I RATHER enjoy living.

"Shit, give them nonlethal rounds, that shit will still take you down." = Nice. No. Nonlethal is an oxymoron. Nonlethal rounds are lethal, more often than not.

"I would not feel safe with every dick and jane running around with guns on their hip or concealed." = I would. I'd feel extremely safe, knowing that if a criminal did decide to try something, he'd have a whole store with sidearms pointed in his direct. Power in numbers. Not only that, it's their right as well. It's everybody's right. Everyone in Kalamazoo that legally owns a handgun, could buy an OWB holster tomorrow morning, strap it on, and carry down the sidewalk. You know why? It's their right, and it should be.

You know what happens when guns get banned, or restricted? People die. Always. You're ignoring history.

FACT : It has been ruled by the supreme court that Police have no obligation to protect the lives of an individual.

Meaning, you could be at work. Some guy could snap, and be going room-to-room with a homemade flamethrower, cooking people alive. And all because the police go "shit man, I don't wanna catch fire"...they'll just sit outside and watch it happen. They have no LEGAL requirement to come save your life. They could sit outside until everyone is dead. Which would you prefer? Police? Or getting cooked alive by some maniac? Or how about taking action TO SAVE YOUR OWN LIFE?

"Especially when Office sounds like he is itching to be a hero or maybe some braggin' rights." = No. I don't want to be a hero, I don't want any bragging rights. I want to exit my car, walk into class, walk back to my car, and drive home. I want that to be uninterrupted. Even if some psycho decides to shoot up KVCC, I STILL want to walk back to my car, and NOT be taken out in a body bag, all because I had no means to defend myself and no where to run.

More facts.
In 1929, the Soviet Union established gun control.
From 1929 to 1953, about 20 million dissidents, unable to defend
themselves, were cut off from their food supplies and starved to
death or rounded up and exterminated.

In 1911, Turkey established gun control.
From 1915 to 1917, 1.5 million Armenians, unable to defend
themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

Germany established gun control in 1938.
From 1939 to 1945, 10 million Jews and others who were unable
to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

China established gun control in 1935.
From 1948 to 1952, 20 million political dissidents, unable to
defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

Guatemala established gun control in 1964.
From 1964 to 1981, 100,000 Mayan Indians, unable to defend
themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

Uganda established gun control in 1970.
From 1971 to 1979, 300,000 Christians, unable to defend
themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

Cambodia established gun control in 1956.
From 1975 to 1977, one to two million 'educated' people,
unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
In 1956 no one in Cambodia could imagine total confiscation and
citizen enslavement in the "foreseeable future", ...
but per capita, more citizens were eventually murdered
by their own government than in any other country in history.

This thread has made me lose any and all hope in most of you.

-Richard-

That's an ignorant statement and strips your argument of any legitimacy it may have had.

I've already stated that a population should outarm their government, but that doing so will not solve the issue of violence. People who believe in arming themselves to the teeth and that assume if everyone did the same thing the whole world would be a safer place are both taking the easy way out and depending on fear to produce peace. What you're telling me: if everyone had a gun, everybody would be too afraid to stand up for their own opinion because if the wrong person gets peeved they might get their head popped.


So am I right? Or are you seriously saying that some people just are not as "responsible" as you are? Are you saying you're better than those people? Are you saying that gun handling makes a human being superior? Are you asserting your dominance over me? Sounds to me like you are your own bad dream and you're afraid to realize it.

" Imma fuckin call the cops and tell them there is a freak roaming my street ready for World War III."

Good. Do it. You know what I'm going to do?

"Can I see some ID?"
"Nope, Michigan has no stand-and-identify clause."
"Why are you carrying a gun?"
"It's my legal right granted by the state constitution and reaffirmed by both the Governor and Attorney General. Am I being detained?"
"No."
"Am I free to go?"
"Yes."
"Goodbye."

And then some overzealous police officer quickly learns what he CAN and CANNOT do. Or they try and start an argument, and they learn something and act like a 4-year old about it.

You believe in the Nanny state. Good for you. I'm sure the Germans believed in the German National Socialist Party too (Not a crack on Obama, I so far, support him...then again, he's really done nothing, so whatever."

Following a Nationwide Gun Ban:
<h1 style="margin: 0pt; font-size: 12px;">“Our streets will be safer, our police more efficient, and the world will follow our lead into the future.” - Adolf Hitler.</h1>
Me personally, I believe a person should provide their own security for their own life. Because hey, the government already told us to fuck off, they're not giving us anything. So guess what? You're on your own.

"SHOULDNT have to walk the streets of the USA carrying a gun"

You're right. I shouldn't. But unfortunately, welcome to the beautiful, evil, diseased, crime ridden world that we live in!

And to the range photo? You don't know what I'm planning. Maybe I'm going to get my uncle to hook me up with a job in Reno? They're hurting for sheriffs at the moment. Or maybe my other uncle, who did Air Force for 20 years, then promptly joined with the Cali branch of the FBI. Or the final option : Maybe I'm preparing for an unforeseeable future, that I don't know if I'll just go to class, or if it'll be a struggle just to live because an invading force decided to destroy society, and life as we know it?

YOU DON'T KNOW what's going to happen in 30 seconds. You don't know what's going to happen tomorrow. You don't know what's going to happen next year. Me personally though, I'm going to cover all my bases. I'm going to learn to shoot, learn to operate high-frequency radio communications equipment, and I'm going to learn intermediate first aid. Because you know why? I enjoy the thought of being prepared for the unknown. I carry in my car a quart or two of 10w30 oil, mixed 50/50 coolant, rags, duct tape, screwdrivers, and a couple wrenches. You know why? Because I'd prefer to have it, and not need it. Then need it, and not have it.

Oh yeah. And HAM radio is insanely fun, just on it's own.

"That's an ignorant statement and strips your argument of any legitimacy it may have had. "

It's the truth. Not all people can handle the responsibility. MANY people each year get their CPL, and after that, never carry. Each person has his or her own breaking point. You may not be able to shoot a criminal that's robbing a cashier at gunpoint, or shoots someone you don't know. But, turn the tables a bit. You're pumping gas. You watch a man drive up beside your car. He gets out, walks to your car, opens the back door, pulls your kid out of your car seat, and starts walking back to his van.

What are you going to do in that situation? EVERY person has their point.

-Richard-